TATENO

You seem to have been busy recently with a lot of different things, including being in charge of designing two pavilions for Expo 2025 Osaka, Kansai.

NAGAYAMA

That’s true. It’s been hectic, but I’m enjoying it.

TATENO

How is the Expo going?

NAGAYAMA

We have already handed over both pavilions, so our work on them is finished.

TATENO

Which pavilions are they?

NAGAYAMA

One is the Panasonic Group’s pavilion and the other is the Women’s Pavilion. (This is the second Expo we have worked on following the Dubai Expo where we designed the Japan Pavilion).

TATENO

I think the Women’s Pavilion and the Panasonic Pavilion both have unique exteriors.

NAGAYAMA

Thank you very much for saying that. The Panasonic Group Pavilion is nicknamed “The Land of NOMO” in English and “NOMO NO KUNI” in Japanese, and we designed it with the aim of bringing out the potential of children. Both the Women’s Pavilion and The Land of NOMO incorporate themes that are very close to my heart, so I worked on them as if they were my own personal projects. The other people involved in both projects are all powerful women, and we inspired each other as we worked on them.

TATENO

In the past, working roles in Japan tended to be clearly defined as “this is men's work” or “this is women's work,” but in recent years, even in the construction industry, it has become quite common to see women driving dumper trucks, for instance.

NAGAYAMA

There are more and more women working on the construction sites too.

TATENO

We need diversity, and I think it is very necessary to eliminate such barriers between roles. I have the impression that you yourself have broken through some barriers in the architectural world. Isn’t that correct?

NAGAYAMA

I think it was my predecessors who paved the way, rather than me personally. In the past, I think women had to try to act more like men if they wanted to break into fields like ours, but these days women can work as the individuals they are and make the most of their own unique characteristics. I feel very happy about that.

TATENO

I’d like to have some time to take a closer look at your work in Tokyo, but I haven’t had the chance yet.

NAGAYAMA

Where do you live?

TATENO

I live in Kobe. I often visit Tokyo on business, but usually only on day trips which means I don’t have very much other time when I’m there. Tokyu Kabukicho Tower, which I know you were involved in, has been in the news recently.

NAGAYAMA

From inside, you can get a good bird’s-eye view of the chaotic Shinjuku scenery that is quintessentially Tokyo. I do urge you to make at least one visit and enjoy a look around.

TATENO

The exterior is very distinctive. How do you come up with ideas like that?

NAGAYAMA

For me, the inspiration for a design often comes from carefully reading the context of the place and thinking about what should be expressed through the design. In the case of Kabukicho, the surrounding area used to be a swamp. Even today, the goddess Benzaiten, goddess of water and all that flows, is venerated there. The image I had for a building in this place was of a fountain rising from the swamp. It would symbolize the aspirations of the people who envisioned Japan’s post-war recovery as well as people of the future who will be involved in the place.

TATENO

So that’s why it has that unique fountain-like appearance, unlike anything I’ve ever seen before. I guess the idea was to build something very new and then allow it to blend in more with the city over time.

NAGAYAMA

Yes, that’s right. It was the first time our company had built something that big. I think it also marked a major event, even if just a momentary one, in the history of this huge city. But then again, I feel big cities such as Tokyo and Osaka simply swallow up everything new in no time at all. Before I knew it, I came to feel that Kabukicho Tower had become just another part of everyday life, another building that has blended into the landscape.

TATENO

Kabukicho is also a very powerful district, isn’t it?

NAGAYAMA

Yes, it is and Kabukicho Tower has already been swallowed up and integrated within its surrounding area, which I feel to be a very good thing.

TATENO

I think it has a very innovative design, but wasn’t it difficult to persuade your clients to accept your idea?

NAGAYAMA

To my surprise, they accepted the design image quite easily. In Shinjuku, there are already many skyscrapers, built during the rapid economic growth period, but Kabukicho Tower is a hotel and entertainment complex. So, from the start, the clients were looking for something completely different. I think that’s why they responded so sympathetically to the softer expression.

TATENO

In order to realize a project like this, something never attempted before, you needed the client's full understanding and approval, right?

NAGAYAMA

Yes, that’s so true. I think it’s great that the client approved it. Whenever we have to realize a project, I feel the client is taking on the challenge with us. When their wish for something new overlaps with our own, I know the project will be a success.

TATENO

In Osaka, I feel there are surprisingly few examples of buildings that have taken on such challenges. In the past, developers were more willing to embrace challenges and try new things, but these days they have become more conservative. Even when looking at individual buildings, I feel that fewer attempts are being made to create innovative exteriors. In Tokyo, more experimentation is going on, and it feels as if the entire city is being redesigned. Meanwhile, in Osaka, buildings are being constructed one by one, and when I look at the whole city, I get the impression that there is no other city quite like it.

NAGAYAMA

I see. But here (in the Umekita area), you are doing some very challenging things across a large area of Umeda. The proportion of parkland is huge, and I think you’ve created a really pleasant place.

TATENO

This is the first time in Osaka that a prime location development has managed to include so much green space.

NAGAYAMA

I think it’s amazing to have such a vast open plaza right in the middle of the city. Of course, it can also serve as an evacuation site in times of emergency. I hope we will see more developments built that include this kind of open space. If areas like this are developed to be so cramped that there is no room for others to intervene, I think it will be difficult to do anything new there in the future.

TATENO

Empty spaces for the future Osaka. I guess that’s one way of looking at it.

NAGAYAMA

I am currently involved in a project to build a new skyscraper in front of Tokyo Station called the Tokyo Torch (part of the TOKYO TORCH project), which will be the tallest building in Japan when complete. There is a large plaza in the middle of the site, and we came up with the idea of an aerial walkway connecting the plaza to the Torch Tower.

TATENO

I see. So, you can walk all the way around the perimeter of the building’s lower levels.

NAGAYAMA

I am really fascinated by the activities that go on in cities. When we first go to a country we know nothing about, just walking around a city and encountering things that instantly appeal to our senses can be quite an intense experience. I want to create a building in front of Tokyo Station that will give people that kind of feeling.

TATENO

It is the Japan’s front porch, isn’t it?

NAGAYAMA

That's right. This area once flourished as the gateway to Edo Castle, and I hope that the Torch Tower will become a new gateway to welcome people from all over the world.

TATENO

New York is also a great city in the sense that every time I go there, I encounter things that are new and exciting.

NAGAYAMA

Do you go there often?

TATENO

Yes. And in a similar way, tourists from all over the world who flock to Tokyo will be able to experience sky walking when they visit the new building. Perhaps they will experience the same kind of excitement at Tokyo Torch that we feel when we visit another country for the first time.

NAGAYAMA

I want to create an aerial walkway and observation deck so that people who live in Tokyo as well as international visitors can walk around and enjoy the panoramic views of Tokyo in its entirety, and discover things they didn’t previously know about.

TATENO

I hope we will see more exciting architecture like that in Osaka. Before COVID, Spain was attracting more than 80 million tourists a year from abroad. I estimate that about 10% of them, or 8 million people, went to see Gaudi’s architecture. When you think about it like that, buildings can be a huge asset, can’t they?

NAGAYAMA

I completely agree with you.

TATENO

That’s why I always tell my employees they should become more involved in such excellent work and take pride in it. But when I look at Osaka and many other places these days, I can’t help thinking that good buildings are not possible if you are stingy with the budget.

NAGAYAMA

Please say that more loudly. *Laughs*

TATENO

There are times where you can work with clients who do have an understanding, and you can then create something very good together. However, I feel there have been many cases recently where concepts and designs with a lot of thought and effort put into them, have not been reflected in the finished product due to budget limitations. That’s a great pity.

NAGAYAMA

The end-results of attracting large numbers of people to a building, as in the case of Gaudi’s architecture, will be hundreds of times greater than the cost of constructing the building. But nowadays, people often just look at the project cost and declare it too expensive and must be reduced, without any clear indicators to determine what constitutes a high cost. I feel people these days are losing the ability to dream. So, what is important is for us to realize architecture that properly conveys the power possible in another person’s extraordinary dream. I hope people will experience the impact of this power for themselves, and that it will encourage us all to support each other to achieve our future dreams.

TATENO

My feeling is that, today, the young people in particular are lacking the spirit to stick to their own ideas and work to make them a reality, no matter what. In the past, I think architecture professors were steadfast in their determination that an architect should never compromise on this point. I hope the next generation of aspiring architects will learn from people like yourself how to achieve new success without succumbing to pressures to cut costs.

NAGAYAMA

That is a really difficult thing to do. There are times when we feel that ‘if we cross this line, it will be difficult to accept the job’. To be honest, there are times when we do have to consider quitting a project. Even so, we are very flexible in listening to the other party’s requests. We do try to reach a compromise and think up new solutions.

TATENO

Of course that is also important.

NAGAYAMA

Some clients tell us upfront that they only have a limited budget. That being the case, we must think about what we can achieve within that budget such that everyone will be happy. Ultimately, it is essential to make sure that a good building gets built and that the architect’s core message is communicated. So, no matter how limited the budget, we work with the client and try our best to preserve the strength of the core message we want to convey.

TATENO

So that you don’t erase the core of what you really want to convey?

NAGAYAMA

Yes, that’s right. And sometimes, when you do this, the proposal evolves, and you come to realize there are other things more important than the parts you were initially concerned about. Then the ego just disappears naturally, leaving only the core of what is truly important. This often results in a better expression, so I think it’s a very important process.

TATENO

I’ve been working with door handles for nearly 70 years, and in the past, architects were very particular about even the smallest details. They would make all kinds of unreasonable requests. Somehow or other, by working together with the craftsmen, we would always manage to meet the architect’s demands, and in the process, the skills of the craftsmen and our own skills would improve.

NAGAYAMA

Craftsmen play a really important role in the world of architecture.

TATENO

It is also in our interests to have people use ready-made products, but if we don’t keep asking the craftsmen to take on difficult or seemingly impossible challenges, we may end up in a situation where there are no craftsmen available when the time comes to start work on a new construction project. So, I would like to ask architects and designers to undertake new challenges using new materials, even if it’s only for a small part of the project. If they work together with us, the manufacturer, I think we can maintain the construction technologies that are the pride of Japan worldwide.

NAGAYAMA

When we work with UNION, if we say we want a certain finish, or we want it a little more like this or that, you have been able to customize the product very precisely. On the other hand, there are more and more manufacturers these days who don’t respond in that way. Instead, they say things like “This is the best we can do” or “We can't guarantee anything beyond this.” However, when we go to factories overseas, even if we ask for the impossible, the engineers will modify their machines and do their best to push the limits of their production capabilities.

TATENO

Are overseas factories more flexible?

NAGAYAMA

Yes. Chinese companies, for instance, are willing to go that far. Perhaps that’s an attitude that used to be common in Japan.

TATENO

That's right. I think it’s something we are losing in today’s Japan.

NAGAYAMA

I think that in Japan, even though we may say, “This is as far as we can go,” we still try to raise our standards with each project. Now the same thing is happening overseas too. When I go to China or Vietnam, young engineers immediately try to make samples for me.

TATENO

That is encouraging.

NAGAYAMA

It makes me feel that the possibilities are expanding. I love making things, so when I visit a factory, my ideas of what I want to do just keep expanding. But in Japan, there are fewer and fewer factories willing to go to the trouble of modifying their machines to meet our requests.

TATENO

Even in Japan, 40 years ago, you couldn’t get work unless you were willing to respond to those kinds of difficult challenge. Now, most people of that generation have retired or are retiring. What’s more, young people are no longer coming into the industry, either because of the difficulties involved in the work or the low salaries. The Empire State Building, which I saw for the first time when I visited New York more than 50 years ago, had brass and aluminum castings that were all made in the United States. Nowadays, such things are no longer made in America.

NAGAYAMA

So, it seems Japan is now turning that way too.

TATENO

Yes. If we want to order brass work, we either have to go to Takaoka in Toyama Prefecture or we go overseas. In the past, we could get the work done in Osaka City. I think it’s important to consider how we can ensure this kind of technology continues in the future. I too understand, as you say, the new reality. We no longer have a choice but to rely on overseas manufacturers. I also think we should be concerned about the hollowing out of Japan as a whole. It has already begun to occur at the base of the construction industry.

NAGAYAMA

That's right. In the case of Kabukicho Tower, we were able to get the casting parts made in Japan, but most of the other components had to be made overseas. It’s such a shame that we can’t make things in Japan that are to become Japan’s buildings. Today, factories are being downsized, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to make large-scale products here.

TATENO

Are you interested in Todaiji temple and other wooden architecture?

NAGAYAMA

I don't know very much about it, but on one occasion when I visited Nara to do an interview, I took the opportunity to look at a lot of things. When I heard that the techniques used in the old days are no longer possible today, it made me realize how important it is to pass on techniques that have been refined through competition and mutual encouragement. In those days, building large temples was a way of demonstrating authority. Architecture is not just about function, but also about symbolism.

TATENO

That is exactly my feeling about Gaudi's architecture.

NAGAYAMA

Yes. People are drawn to such symbolic things and gather around them to sense the pinnacle of human wisdom and imagination. Architecture has that kind of power. When I was in Rome the other day, I went to see the Pantheon, and as always, it was amazing. The way the light shines through the building, I can't help but feel a divine presence, something that transcends the human condition.

TATENO

People in the past really knew how to handle light. They did it so well, didn’t they?

NAGAYAMA

When I was a child, I lived in Switzerland. I got to see a lot of European architecture. Later, however, when I revisited Europe as an adult, which was after I had started to study architecture, I entered a church and saw how sunlight was pouring in through a rose window. I thought the effect was just incredible. I was amazed at how skillfully they were able create a scene so powerful that the people witnessing it felt literally compelled to get down on their knees.

TATENO

Isn’t the same thing true of Japanese shrines and temples?

NAGAYAMA

Yes, I think so, although the way those structures handle light is a little different. By creating darkness, such buildings somehow produce a sense of awe. By using light and darkness in different ways, they make people feel as if their senses are unifying with the place.

TATENO

In Japan, I think castles were the symbols of power. Nobunaga's Azuchi Castle, for example, is said to have been constructed as a way for him to demonstrate his god-like powers. I assume that similar motives were in play among the builders of many temples as well.

NAGAYAMA

I think architecture today is different from the days when buildings existed primarily as symbols of power. It has become democratized, or rather, it has become architecture for everyone, which I think is a very good thing. There seem to be new possibilities stemming from that. I think that how we make use of architecture’s power will be very important in the future.

TATENO

As you have been involved in designing Japanese condominiums, do you have any thoughts on how they can be improved in terms of their spaciousness or living environment?

NAGAYAMA

Yes, I do. For example, if you live in a city, it is difficult to have a large house, and people seldom invite others to visit their homes as guests anymore. In the past, it was natural to invite people over, and even in private homes, there was a sense of hare and ke (traditional Japanese concepts of time and space; hare referring to special days and places used for celebratory events and ke to ordinary everyday life). Now homes are becoming more and more personal.

TATENO

Indeed. The sense of a public space is fading, isn't it?

NAGAYAMA

For example, these days, children have very few opportunities to go to a friend’s house to play. When I build a home, I place importance on the idea of guests being able to come over for fun and to enjoy spending time together. I believe that no matter how small or cramped the overall space may be, with a little ingenuity it should be possible for the people living there to re-work the space so they can spend time with other people.

TATENO

I remember that in the old days, people used to invite others into their homes casually.

NAGAYAMA

We are currently renovating a small condominium, and we are designing it from the perspective of what kind of space can be created when the residents invite guests into what is a rather limited space. If we rethink homes with this in mind, we might be able to be a little more flexible in how we approach rooms, rather than just making them functional. My own home is, in essence, just a one-room apartment. We lay out our futons and sleep side-by-side, and when guests come over, we put the futons away and welcome them in the same space.

TATENO

It seems like there are a lot of possibilities if you use a little ingenuity.

NAGAYAMA

We once renovated an old, detached house although it wasn't especially large. It was the home of a tea ceremony teacher who wanted to hold classes there. But it didn’t have enough rooms to accommodate a tea ceremony room. To solve the problem, we made it possible to use the main bedroom as a tea ceremony space. By using a three-fold flooring mat that, like a futon, can be folded and stored away during the daytime, the bedroom can be used as a tea ceremony room with an incense burner. Classes can now be held there. It really all depends on your ingenuity.

TATENO

Compared to past times, Japanese people are now taller and bigger, yet the ceilings in homes have become lower. So, if there was a little more space, that alone would enrich people's lives. From a seller’s point of view, it may seem better to build several homes on a single plot of land to sell, but I don't think this is necessarily the case. It would be nice if we could have living environments where people can visit each other and enjoy more interpersonal communication, as well as more space for their own lives and hobbies.

NAGAYAMA

I think so. When you create a space that will be used for inviting guests, the owners naturally become more particular about it. They care more about materials used for the interior and things like door handle details. Such thinking would also help develop greater craftsmanship. So, I do hope we’ll see more and more efforts to enrich living spaces and people’s lives by better use of whatever space they have.

TATENO

More and more people are working from home these days, teleworking, etc.

NAGAYAMA

More and more people are working from home these days, teleworking, etc.

NAGAYAMA

If they are going to be at home all the time, I can see they would want plants on the balcony and to be able to sit outside for a bit, compared to settling for a cold and dreary living space.

TATENO

I once visited Russia back in the Soviet era. I remember, for example, a driver, who at weekends would go to his own farm to cultivate his vegetables. I recall feeling that he was a richer man than myself. It has been widely observed that communication and a sense of community in Japan have been in decline recently, and that many more people are now suffering from depression. I think it is essential for us to restore that kind of affluence. It would be very nice if a world like the one you describe could be created, with the sort of housing you touched on, places where neighbors can socialize and get to know one another as friends.

TATENO

When you were a student, I understand that you were involved in the stage design for dancer and actor Min Tanaka. I believe you were so overwhelmed by its brilliance that you felt there was no place for you there, which was why you chose to go into architecture. Since then, you have built up a career as an architect and in recent years also been making various contributions to the arts. What are your thoughts now as an architect about stage art?

NAGAYAMA

Regarding stage performances, there is no substitute for the human power on display. I still believe that the people are the main characters on the stage, but the way they are presented and the situations they are in can change depending on the type of space they are in. So, if I ever get the chance, I would like to take up the challenge of stage design again.

TATENO

I am looking forward to seeing some of the stages that, as an architect, you would design.

NAGAYAMA

As architects, our basic approach is to respond to requests for work, but artists seek out their own themes and express them on their own. That is the aspect which I find very difficult. There is no one asking them to do it, so they need to find a theme within themselves they want to create. Then they continue to create it even though they don’t know if it will sell. That takes a lot of determination.

TATENO

Yes, it takes determination as well as passion.

NAGAYAMA

My husband is precisely that kind of artist. Watching him closely, I think he has an incredible amount of mental strength, and I also feel it is important to have strong feelings about social issues. In this day and age there seems to be a tendency to compromise, and to think, “this is good enough.” But artists are always confronting their creation and asking whether it is good enough. I have a lot of respect for that attitude, and I get a lot of inspiration from it.

TATENO

Nevertheless, can we not say that architects are artists too?

NAGAYAMA

People often say that, but when I am with artists, I find they are completely different creatures from myself. We may share a similar creative sensibility, however. We may also share a similar strength in our determination not to give up. I often say, “Never giving up is my job,” as I push my ideas through. *Laughs*

TATENO

Perhaps that passion and ability to breakthrough are part of an artist’s temperament. *Laughs*

NAGAYAMA

Looking at this exhibition (Under 35 Architects Exhibition / October 2024), I’ve realized once again how interesting architecture is.

TATENO

When I look at the work of young people, I am reminded once again of things we tend to forget as time goes by. It is very challenging.

NAGAYAMA

Everyone has a different perspective, but I feel a kind of pure emotion or passion in each of these works, and this inspires me and makes me happy.

TATENO

When you have been doing the same job for years on end, you sometimes take things for granted and you can end up just going through the motions. So when young people come into our company, I want them to be able to look at things with fresh eyes and ask us questions like “Why are you doing this?”, so that we can hear some frank opinions. That can be the starting point for innovation. When your work starts to feel routine, where do you look for inspiration? Perhaps overseas travel is one such opportunity?

NAGAYAMA

In the past, when I went abroad, I would return straight away. I was usually very busy, so even when my children were small, I didn’t have much time to travel overseas or go sightseeing. It’s true that when you are doing things that involve output, eventually you start to want to do things that involve new input. So, there are times when I think I need to go somewhere, but surprisingly, I find a lot of input from things in everyday life, too.

TATENO

Can you give me some examples?

NAGAYAMA

Recently, I’ve been making jewelry together with a casting manufacturer called Nosaku (in Takaoka City, Toyama Prefecture), and I’ve always loved jewelry. I have about 40 projects going on at the same time, ranging from some small products like jewelry to skyscrapers. I find that to be involved in so many different things all at once is really stimulating.

TATENO

There is a nice gap between the very small and the very large.

NAGAYAMA

There is feedback from jewelry design to architecture, and vice versa. In our office, we don’t divide up the work into products, interiors, architecture, and so on.

TATENO

You mean everyone can get involved in everything? That's sounds great.

NAGAYAMA

Any staff member who raises their hand and says they want to do it gets to do it. When a project comes in, the staff in our office listen attentively. Then, later, they volunteer to work on it. I think that’s a very good thing. It means that everyone can experience a variety of jobs without being assigned to one specific repetitive role. In this way, they look at every job with fresh eyes. I feel we work in an environment where it’s easy to get inspired.

TATENO

Even at our company, we tell employees that unless they gain inspiration from design and fashion, they won’t come up with innovative ideas. It’s the same even if they are only designing door handles. I think it’s a good thing that you try to challenge yourself by learning about a variety of different things and crossing genres.

NAGAYAMA

The other day, the head of design at Google was visiting Japan from the US, and we had a conversation. She is a woman, and she used to be a jewelry designer, and I also design jewelry, so we had a lot to talk about. We also had some other things in common, and we talked about what we had learned through raising our children. She has a two-year-old grandchild, and she talked about how witnessing the child’s first-time encounter with something allowed her to discover a new aspect of what it is to be human, and I could really relate to that.

TATENO

Sources of inspiration are lurking everywhere in our daily lives, aren't they?

NAGAYAMA

I had more than a few difficulties raising my children, but I also made many discoveries. I say “I had” difficulties but raising my children is still a work in progress. The other day, my son broke his collar bone, and that caused me some trouble, but I also learned a lot, and every day is exciting.

TATENO

I understand that your son was born at a time when you were particularly busy.

NAGAYAMA

Yes, it was a struggle. I was trying to balance childbearing and raising children with work during a very important time in my career.

TATENO

It’s wonderful that you are now enjoying so much success, after all that effort. I look forward to seeing much more of your architecture around the world in the future.

*Interview concludes*

Both

Thank you very much.

Planning: Naoyuki Miyamoto
Photography：Yasuhiro Sawao
Writing：Naoki Moritani
Web Direction : Tomoko Yoshimura